What is Mass Timber, and how is Katerra using it? (feat Pete Kobelt)

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Show Notes

What is Mass Timber? Why is Katerra using it for Construction? Our guest, Pete Kobelt, holds the answers to these questions along with incredible facts about Mass Timber. Here are a few of the things we dive into! 

- What is Mass Timber Construction?

- Is Mass TImber fire resistant?

- What made Katerra choose Mass Timber?

- What kind of insulation advantages are you seeing from using this material?


Construction Junkie - best podcast of the year 2020

Related Links

Katerra's Website

Pete's LinkedIn

80 M Street Washington, DC

First Approval Granted for Possible Tallest Mass Timber Building in North America


Tyler: Hey guys, Tyler here. Before we get going, I wanted to ask a favor. We were selected as a contestant in Construction Junkie’s Best Construction Podcast of 2020. In order to win this thing, we need your votes. So go into the show notes, and you should see a link to constructionjunkie.com. All you have to do is go to the link, scroll all the way down to the bottom, and you should see a list of podcasts. Select ours, pretty please, and put your name and your email in, and that will cast a vote for us. There is also an option that you can select to opt out of his emails, but if you like construction related content, give it a go. Hey, what have you got to lose? You can always cancel it later. Thanks for voting for us. Thanks for being here. We appreciate you guys. Enjoy the show.


Tyler: Welcome to the Construction Brothers Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Campbell, and with me like he is every week: my brother, Eddie Campbell.

Eddie: Hello, Tyler.

Tyler: Hello, Eddie. Well this week: What is mass timber, and how is Katerra using it? But first things first, I would like to bring something to your attention.


Interview: (5:15)

Tyler: Well Pete, thanks for joining us today, man. Can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Pete Kobelt: Yeah, sure guys. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be a part of the podcast. My name's Pete Kobelt. I've been studying the advent of mass timber in Europe, Canada, and the United States for the better part of the last decade. I come from a family with roots in Switzerland and, more specifically, in forestry in Switzerland. I continue to be a U.S. and Swiss citizen, which is to me a great privilege. In doing some research in Switzerland about our family's ancestry and forestry, I discovered the great advances that have been taking place over the last three decades in central Europe, with an epicenter being Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, in learning how to use lower value forestry resources and turning them into high value added engineered wood products that can for the first time give us the opportunity to compete with concrete and steel in commercial construction. So I've been doing that independently for about a decade, largely importing these systems from Europe for U.S. construction projects, and then went on to found the first cross-laminated timber, which is one of the mass timber component products, manufacturing facility up in Montana—which eventually led me to landing at Katerra, which is kind of the mothership of prefabrication, vertical integration, and mass timber manufacturing construction. We built a quarter million square foot manufacturing facility in Spokane, Washington, and I'm responsible now for trying to move a 12 million square feet of CLT systems out into the commercial market throughout North America. So that's kind of an abbreviated version of where I came from and where I am now.

Tyler: Yeah, no big deal. So, we wanted to talk to you about mass timber. Can you kind of give us the definition and just tell us the story of it?

Pete Kobelt: Yeah, it's a great story. So I think of mass timber as an umbrella category, under which you would have products like cross-laminated timber and glulam beams, and I'll just touch on those briefly. We've been making glulam beams for a century and a half. If you and I went out to Home Depot and bought a pile of two-by-sixes and face-glued them together and sat on them, we'd have a glulam beam that spans in one direction and is very strong, similar to a wide flange steel beam. CLT came along when a couple—and there's some debate between Austria and Switzerland as to who came up with it first, I like to favor the Swiss—but at some point somebody said, well, why don't we start gluing these together at 90 degrees and make a panel instead of all just face going up. So they spun each layer 90 degrees, which is called an orthogonal layup, and started making a panel. And what that 90 degree does is it gives you what's called biaxial strength. So you have strength in two directions. If you think of a reinforced concrete slab and the way they lay up the rebar, it's all laid up at 90 degrees to each other and tied together and then the concrete makes it a composite slab; but two direction, the biaxial direction of the boards that go into a CLT plate achieve that same biaxial strength. So for the first time you've got a floor plate system that can compete with concrete and steel and commercial construction. And you hold that up with the glulam columns and beams underneath a CLT and glulam building, would be what I would call utilizing mass timber components to erect the structure of a building. One of the advantages of that is the speed of build. If you think our panels can be up to 60 feet long and 12 feet wide, that's 720 square feet. If I can hoist one every 10 minutes, I'm building at a pace of 720 square feet every 10 minutes with a single crane. If it's a big job and I have two cranes, then I'm doing it double that, and that's unprecedented, and it's very efficient, and it's displacing very high embodied energy materials like concrete and steel that are accounting for, depending on who you talk to, 10 to 15 percent of global carbon emissions come from the manufacturing of those two products alone. So if we can replace those with a product that is sequestering carbon, just by the fact that it grew in the woods and absorbed sunlight and absorbed carbon, not only are we offsetting the production of a high carbon footprint material, but we're also sequestering the carbon that's in that wood, or as long as that wood is being used in that application. So it's a win-win on the carbon footprint, and it's a win on the construction, and the task is then designing the building to be most efficient and optimized for our system so that we can be cost-competitive against a more traditional concrete or steel or concrete and steel structure.

Eddie: I know at Katerra you made the decision to, you know, lean in and use mass timber as your primary structural resource. Now it seems like, Hey, maybe that's got some limitations, or maybe there's a downside in some instances to using mass timber. What made Katerra want to lean in and use mass timber as their system?

Pete Kobelt: That’s a good question. So I have to put it in context a little bit. It's not our only offering. So our other factories are utilizing automated production of more traditional light wood frame and light gauge steel panelized structural systems that have full MEPF installed and buttoned up in the factory. So for our more traditional three and four story apartment buildings and what have you—senior living, student housing—those are all being built in an automated factory setting using traditional materials. Katerra's included mass timber in the “offering,” if you will, by virtue of seeing that we could cost-effectively compete with concrete steel and that there was a true wood revolution coming and it fit with the mantra of the company. Can we do things better, more sustainably, smarter, more vertically-integrated with the fiber resources? So CLT was never intended, nor can it be, cost-effective against lowest common denominator construction techniques like light wood frame and light gauge steel. It can work in hybrid and in partnership with those structural elements quite nicely, but not as a complete system. Its most compelling value proposition is against more expensive concrete and steel. And we've been able to help steer code decisions to allow for taller timber buildings, because the taller we can go using wood, then we're displacing increasing amounts of concrete and steel. And the value proposition continues to grow as the building gets taller. So the 2021 code, when adopted—and jurisdictions have adopted all different years of the code, which changes every three years—the coming 2021 code, which has already been adopted by certain forward-thinking states like Washington, Oregon, California, will allow us to go up to 18 stories with timber. So you could conceivably do a 19 over 1, meaning a podium with 18 stories of timber above it. Brock Commons up in B.C. at the University of British Columbia did nine stories recently. And so we're pushing the envelope right out of the shoot here with what the code changes are allowing us to do. 

Eddie: That's something that we have done some reading here about—now, what's the tallest building that you've been involved with? Is that the nine story building?

Pete Kobelt: I was not involved in that. The biggest mass timber building I was personally, intimately involved with was another imported project I did just before landing at Katerra, which was a five story, 200,000 square foot, 705 bed dormitory at the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. It's called the Adohi, which is the local native term for forest, Adohi Stadium Drive residence hall. We were putting up a smaller high density storage annex facility on the campus. I happened to do some presentations there and it struck some chords, and we fared it out a project that was an easy conversion from a 12 inch reinforced CMU over to a structural glulam and CLT box four story, high density storage annex. So just a series of boxes plugged together, so a very good candidate for a CLT system. So those two were the last two big ones that I was involved with prior to Katerra. Currently, we're doing a couple of different, roughly a hundred thousand square foot, four and five story office buildings. And we're doing a hundred thousand square foot vertical expansion, which will be the first of its kind, in Washington, D.C. That one is of interest because the timber allowed us to do an expansion because of the lightweight nature of the materials. It's the first of its kind, and it's going to really illustrate and amplify the notion that it's a great system to do vertical expansion because you don't have to alter or reinforce the existing structural elements. Maybe not in every instance, but in this instance. That was a relatively modern building, and so it was, you know, overbuilt as we tend to do. And so we were able to introduce a mass timber frame and floor system on top of the existing building. So it's going to be a really good study on that particular application.

Eddie: People are funny about wood products and the harvest of wood, cutting down trees and things like that. I know you guys have given this a lot of thought, so I want to hear: How do you help people process just kind of the environmental concerns of using wood versus other materials?

Pete Kobelt: Yeah, it's a really important piece of the discussion. And if you're going to do a life cycle assessment of this from a carbon footprint perspective, from an environmental footprint perspective, then you really have to start out in the woods where the fiber is grown and into the species. We are sourcing currently 100 percent of our fiber from Canada, and we're using an SPF North species recognition, which is a Spruce Pine/Fir mix. That's not Doug Fir, that’s an Alpine Fir, so it’s white wood. That's a mix of Spruce Pine and Alpine Fir, versus the Doug Fir that's prodigious in the region as well. This is a lighter material. Strength to weight ratio is exceptional, and it's a very pleasing aesthetic. But you got to go to the woods and you have to support sustainable forestry practices. The days of clear cutting in our region have largely disappeared, because we began to recognize the value that this industry needs to be sustainable and it needs to replant and it needs to selectively harvest, and it needs to follow the European mentality, which is a snazzy little catchphrase I like to use called “taking the worst first.” So we're selecting fiber that is the least healthy, and letting the healthy species grow and repopulate, because in our process, we're removing defects. Because we're finger joining boards back together, ‘cause we need to get up to 60 feet lengths to press. So obviously, you can't buy a 60 foot board, so we'll buy any length, random length. We don't care, ‘cause we're going to remove that defect, repurpose that for something, and then we're going to finger join it into a stress rated board that makes a really strong panel or glulam beam. So we have just recently achieved our FSC, SFI, and PEFC. Lot of letters, I know, but FSC, for example, is Forestry Stewardship Council. Independent agency, not industry-funded, that monitors the chain of custody of the fiber from the tree to the finished product. And we have that chain of custody all the way through so that when we get inquiries that say, we want our wood and we will pay a premium for it, but know that it's gone through that FSC certified chain of custody that we're getting, we know what our clients are expecting us to provide is a truly sustainable building. One fun sound bite we did in Arkansas—because we're on a university campus, but we had a lot of students participating, which was very deliberate. We really encouraged the architecture students and the engineering students to come to the presentations, come to the construction site, come to the lab where we were pressing homemade samples for distribution. They were very interested in the word “sustainability,” and what does it really mean? And I thought that's a really great opportunity because we throw around “sustainability” left and right nowadays, but what does it really mean? And here's the next generation of architects and engineers that have the opportunity to change the world. And I said, I’d better figure out what this really means. So the school had a forestry department, and I called the forestry department and I said, You got a lot of trees in Arkansas, man. And I said, I didn't know much about Arkansas before I came down here. I probably couldn't have pointed it out on a map. Well, it's an extraordinary state, it’s beautiful. It’s called “The Natural State.” Arkansas has 19 million acres of trees that grow 71 tons of wood fiber every 60 seconds. So just think about that. In the time we've been talking, think about how much wood fiber was grown just in the state of Arkansas. So they said to me, Well, how much volume of wood is in those buildings? And I said, Well, the library storage is 1,000 cubic meters. There's 424 board feet in a cubic meter, and the Adohi residence hall is about 4,000 cubic meters. So, okay. Total, two projects, 5,000 cubic meters, spends 444 board feet. Convert, do the math. They said, Well, here's your fun fact for the students. We could regrow the library storage annex in 30 minutes, and we can regrow the dormitory in two and a half hours. That's a portion of what sustainability means. It's a renewable resource. And the Southern Pine in particular, which we didn't use on this because we had to import them. But we've now been successful at luring manufacturing to Arkansas, which was part of the mandate when I got hired as a consultant by Walmart up the street in Bentonville who was very intrigued with the systems we were deploying on these construction sites. They said, Well, we'd like to bring manufacturing here, ‘cause we grow all this Southern Pine. Well, the Southern Pine life cycle is like 40 years. That's short in tree-growing world, and so it's a wonderful candidate species for engineered wood products because it grows so fast and it's so renewable. And there's a swath of Southern Yellow Pine from Texas to the Carolinas that's, I think, one of the largest contiguous swaths of timber fiber on the planet. So you know, that's a renewable resource. And that's why, you know, I don't know if you guys saw this, this is a bit of a tangent—but recently for several weeks, wind and solar output surpassed coal in the United States. It kind of toggles back and forth, that's kind of weather contingent, but you know, that's where we're headed. Whether some people want to admit it or not, that's where we're going. And so we're bringing the construction industry along, which is not an easy, it's a pretty tectonic move. But we're getting there and the markets seem to be creating the demand for us. 

Eddie: Hey, I gotta throw in maybe a little bit of an anecdote here. But I mean, back in school, I remember hearing in a history class that there was a period of time where a squirrel could start on the coast, the East coast of the United States, and not have to touch ground until it got to Mississippi because of that forest you're talking about. And when I hear people talk about maybe a shortage of tree resource—living in timber country, as we do in South Middle Georgia, it's a little bit of a foreign concept to me. So, incredibly interesting and great context there of the time period it takes to actually renew that resource. That was cool. 

Tyler: I have kind of a question about the renewable resources as well. How renewable is a material like concrete in comparison? 

Pete Kobelt: We're working on lower carbon footprint concrete that doesn't require so much heat energy, or alternative ways of creating that heat. We're doing a lot internationally where it's just not feasible for us to use wood fiber, and where precast factory built concrete just makes sense. The only thing you can really do is crush it and recycle it and try to use it again. But you can imagine the energy that is consumed into repurposing concrete—and it's got steel in it, so you've gotta knock it down, then you gotta separate the steel and you gotta crush it. And I don't know too much about it, but just from common sense, if you add the carbon output, the energy output of repurposing that, you add it to the original output—what we call embodied energy, that's the energy that's stuck in that material from its production—I mean, I know a little bit about how concrete is made and you know, the minerals that go into it are not something that are renewable. That a finite resource. Because they don't grow, they just exist on the planet, like our precious metals and what have you. We're not making any more of them, they're just what we have is what we have. So to me, and to us, anything that is truly fundamentally renewable, and it's the simplest things there are: The sun, the wind, and wood. I mean, it doesn't get any simpler than that. I sure hope when we emerge through what we're going through right now, that it gave us pause to reconsider everything we're doing. I've seen a couple of really intriguing stories about the disappearance of air pollution. And in particular, there was one example in Africa where they could see Mount Kenya from Tanzania for the first time in a hundred years. And people who'd lived there for two generations—it's only 80 miles away. They've never seen the mountain and they were freaking out. They didn't know what was happening. Well, guess what? The sky cleared up, the earth healed itself in a matter of days and weeks, you know? And I just hope that we come through this with a renewed sense of how precious our balance is and how important it is to do the right thing. And cost has new meaning, you know? Is the cost of the renewable building system a little bit more expensive than a conventional one? Apples to apples, okay, maybe it is. But what are the other costs that we should be thinking about that impact the way we live and the way we use our resources? Those are new costs that I think I hope become part of the vernacular in this larger discussion. 

Tyler: So switching gears a little bit on you, I want to know about fire rating. Because I know for a fact that wood burns, and I know you've talked about fire rating in the past. So I'm curious, like how are you able to achieve those fire ratings? 

Pete Kobelt: Yeah, so this is the big one when it comes to the authorities having jurisdiction. The AHJs, they want to know about fire. Wood is wood and it burns. The simplest analogy is, when you're trying to make a fire, you don't throw a big fat round log on there, right? You can't even burn that thing when you got a raging bonfire going, because it chars and it protects itself. Mass timber is exactly the same way. It's difficult to ignite, and it burns at a very slow and, equally important, very predictable rate. So there's been exhaustive testing on a 6.6 inch thick, five ply CLT panel on glulam beams, and it survives unprotected. It survives a two hour furnace burn test—under load, okay, so all the conditions that you'd have. And you have to keep in mind, we're putting all these in sprinkled buildings. So these are extreme safety factor tests, and we're still passing them. So that two hour fire rating is important that we've achieved it. And it's interesting because when we do a two hour building, which is, the example in Washington, D.C. is one. And by the way, it's called 80M, the number 80 and the letter M as in Mary, in the Capitol Riverfront in Washington, D.C. It's public information and for those of you who are interested in some of these early adopter projects, that's it. But when we do the connections on those two hour ratings, we embed the steel connections inside the wood. One, it's a design intention, often it's an aesthetic it's magically staying together. But two, it's the wood that protects the steel from the fire, because that charring insulates the member enough that the interior never gets too hot and never burns within the timeframe. And as long as— It's essentially self extinguishing, ‘cause it runs out of fuel. And so we actually embed the steel, ‘cause once steel gets to a certain temperature it becomes extremely unpredictable and you have typically catastrophic failure. But wood is very, very predictable, and if you talk to fire officials that are up to speed, many of them would rather go into a glulam and CLT building than a steel building because they're not really sure how it's gonna behave. So we've really taken that out of the issue. The other thing, too, is if you look at construction, when a building in light wood frame is most vulnerable to fire is when it's under construction. You just think of, it's just a giant pile of kindling that's nailed together. If someone wanted a torch that it wouldn't take much, or if an accident happened, it wouldn't take much. If you had a mass timber structure standing there and something happened again, it would be very difficult to ignite and it would burn at a very predictable rate and much slower, much less damage. And you could pull those members out and replace them if that were to happen. Hasn't happened yet, but it's another example. 

Eddie: Is the sprinkling of the buildings just kind of a necessary extra precaution to try to appease the municipalities as they’re adopting this and the code officials as they're adopting this?

Pete Kobelt: The type of the building would require a sprinkled system regardless. But buildings in these types, in these type four category of building types, are required to be sprinkled. So regardless of how you were building it, you'd have sprinklers in there. 

Tyler: So what about insulation value? 

Pete Kobelt: There's a combination of elements that come together when you talk about the performance of the building. And finally, we're having a conversation about building performance in this country. You know, energy has been very cheap and the return on investment has been such that most developers who aren't operating their buildings don't really care about the performance of the building, which is kind of a dismal standard, frankly. And now of course, energy is as cheap as we've seen it in our lifetime and people aren't as concerned with energy. Although if they're trying to achieve Living Building Challenge or LEED, it's a big conversation. So CLT, being wood, only has an R-value—which is a silly way of measuring performance, and I'll get to that in a second—of about 1.25 per inch. So if I have a six inch CLT exterior wall, I'm only getting about six and change R-value on that CLT. That's not the story about CLT. When you use CLT as a wall or as a roof, you're always insulating to the exterior. So it's not an exposed element. You're still— Rain screening, insulation, and you know, your siding, and your furr out, and your, whatever your siding, is very flexible. You can do anything you want out on the outside. But what you're doing by eliminating a constrain of a wall cavity like you have with a two by six—which isn't really a two by six, ‘cause we buy a lot of air with our lumber here in the United States, which the Europeans have a lot of fun with. Buy a cubic meter of wood in Europe, you get a cubic meter, and you buy a two by four here, you don't get a two by four, you get a one and a half… you guys know the story. So when you don't have the constraint of a wall cavity, you're afforded the opportunity to put as much or as little insulation over the outside of the CLT as you so choose. So you can design it to a specific level of performance. In Europe, we use the inverse of R-value. We use the U-value, which tells us how much energy is going to be required to heat or cool a square meter of surface area. That's a much more insightful formula than an R-value, which just is cherry picking an ideal section of that wall and saying, Oh, it's R-25. It doesn't really tell you anything. What we've learned with CLT is if I take a rigid insulation and I screw it directly to the outside of CLT, and I put, for example, four inches of say mineral wall, like Roxul or Thermofiber—which is a very complimentary product to CLT ‘cause it’s rigid, installs fast, and screws right to the CLT—that may only be rated as, let's say an R-25 wall, which is good. It's what meets code. As I said earlier, I think our code standards are pretty dismal when it comes to energy performance. So it might, you know, it's nothing to write home about. It might be an R-25 wall, but it performs as if it were maybe double that, as if it were an R-50. Now energy consultants and code officials will have arguments with you, saying that the inefficiency of the traditional stud frame wall is factored into that R-value and whatever. All I know is when we installed the first commercial building in the United States up in Montana, which was a very simple, two-story 5,000 square foot building that used 13,000 square feet of panels that we installed in four days and sent the crane home early. We tested it in the winter. We did a blower door test for air leakage. And we shut the heat off for two days in the dead of winter, in Northwest Montana, 40 miles from the Canadian border. The building lost, depending on where we were, somewhere between four and six degrees in 48 hours in single digit, Montana winter. And we learned that the air leakage that's been reduced by taping the seams on the exterior, the thermal mass value of the wood—which you earn by virtue of insulating to the exterior—once you heat that wood or cool it on the inside, it acts as a heat or cool sink, and that energy can't go anywhere because we've insulated to the outside. We've also eliminated thermal bridging, which is what a stud is in a building, metal being worse than wood, but everywhere there's a stud, unless you've added—and this is only starting to happen now—an exterior layer of insulation, you have a thermal bridge by which your heat or cooling can escape through the stud because it's not insulated. For granted, it's wood, so you get a little bit of value there like we talked about before. But that adds up over the course of a large stick frame building. So the performance of that building is reduced dramatically by that thermal bridge. So we've reduced the thermal bridge, we've eliminated the air leakage. We're open to vapor diffusion because we use membranes that breathe and allow the building to breathe, particularly important with high occupancy buildings where you're creating a lot of water vapor inside and higher pressure and temperatures that want to wick the exterior. Typical modern buildings are trapping that moisture in the wall with a non-breathable membrane, and we're creating instant mold problems. Go to the EPA website and type in mold and get like 25,000 pages of mold problems in modern housing in the United States. It's obscene, and mold is dangerous. So, you know, building health translates into occupant health, and that's increasingly a topic of concern for the newer, younger millennial set that are occupying a lot of these buildings. They have expectations that this building is going to be healthier to work in, and healthier employees are more productive. And so there's a return on investment for these systems. And we're just learning about all these things now and biophilia, biophilic design, huge topic for us using more wood. 

Eddie: Well Pete, at the end of each show, we like to give our guests kind of a chance to preach. And so we have the megaphone question. And all that is, is that if we were to give you a megaphone that the whole construction industry could hear, then we gave you 60 seconds to use it, what would you say to them?

Pete Kobelt: Well, that's a pretty cool opportunity. I've never been called a low-talker. So handing a guy like me a microphone or a megaphone is pretty cool. If and when my friends hear this, they're going to get a chuckle out of that opportunity. So thank you for that. The construction industry is really ripe for change. There's kind of a perfect storm happening right now. The world is changing, and what we're going through, as I alluded to earlier, I hope inspires more profound and fundamental change in the way we look at everything. The construction industry and the materials that we are using are accounting for a hugely disproportionate amount of carbon output, carbon footprint into our climate. We've got to look at every single material that we are using and determine where it's coming from, how it's made, how much energy went into it, and how does it perform, and how does it last, and what do we do with it after life cycle assessments, cradle to cradle? So in my little world, mass timber is a huge opportunity to participate in that revolution. If you think about the massive volumes of renewable timber resources that are sequestering carbon and can deliver buildings that use less energy, it's a triple bottom line win. And I think everyone in the construction industry, if they're not looking at mass timber right now and figuring out how to create an opportunity for themselves—because I promise you those that have gotten out in front have created an instant competitive advantage in the marketplace—if you're not looking at mass timber, and you're not educating some people on your team in being able to respond to your client's inquiries, because they're happening about mass timber. Hey, do you guys do mass timber? Can you install? Are you familiar? Your answer is no, you're going to lose market share. So, if for no other reason, it's a business decision, because it's happening. I've been through 1.0, 2.0, and here we are I think at 3.0, and I think we've reached the tipping point when you see Katerra invest 150 million in the factory. So if for no other reason, it's a business decision, and that usually resonates. But we're also starting to realize the importance of what is the total cost of ownership. Again, as I alluded to earlier, there are costs that we need to start considering as stewards of this planet. And if we're not, you know, we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot here. I mean, I think we can all agree on that. Yeah. I think it's just a massive opportunity to be part of a revolution in an otherwise somewhat archaic industry that has not been quick to adopt new methodologies and new technologies. And there's been some studies on these major indexes of which construction is some and its construction continues to rate among the lowest in increases in efficiency and productivity. So mass timber, and even our other divisions doing factory-built prefabrication, even modularization, I think that's the future. And you know, if you want to be part of the future, then you need to be looking at these things. 

Eddie: Pete, if I'm an owner, and I really want to build a mass timber building, where do I find you, man? 

Pete Kobelt: Hey, find Katerra, katerra.com, K-A-T-E-R-R-A, and you come into the universe of Katerra, which is really impressive because again, we're trying to provide complete vertical integration of building materials is one stop shop, no matter how big a project is. And then you weave your way to the mass timber group and you find myself or my colleague out West, and you reach out. And hopefully it gets to us and we respond. Through the Katerra website is the best way. It's the best primer, and it's rich with information and education. And then we usually do a followup, you know, Zoom, presentation, lunch and learn. We're working on getting our AIA accreditation so that the continuing education that is required of AIA architects in the country will earn those when we do our lunch and learns. And so, that's a requirement and we will be able to provide that. So we're eager to connect with more architects and share much of what we've been discussing today. 

Eddie: Very cool. Pete, thanks so much for being on with us today, man. 

Tyler: Thanks, man. 

Pete Kobalt: I appreciate it guys. And, it’d be fun to do a followup down the road and see how things have changed from where we are.


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