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We welcome Bryan Kaplan of Construction Consulting to talk about relational selling and how, when done properly, clients can turn into a free salesforce. Storytelling, believe it or not, is another valuable asset to have in the world of sales. But first things first, we talk about the stereotypes surrounding video conferencing and some of the best fails we've seen and heard of while people are chatting on Zoom.
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
Trello (just get it)
Tyler: Welcome to the Construction Brothers Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Campbell, and with me like he is every week: my brother, Eddie Campbell.
Eddie: What's up, Tyler?
Tyler: Not much, Eddie. Well, we got an awesome show for you today. We are going to be talking to Mr. Bryan Kaplan, and he's going to teach us how to be like Yoda.
Eddie: Sell, you will.
Tyler: Well Bryan, thanks for joining us, man. Can you tell us who you are and what you do?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah guys, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. I know we've been chatting for a couple of months now, and happy we were able to sit down and do this. And yeah, just a quick intro about me: So I'm a Canadian carpenter, turned project manager, turned residential construction consultant. So I’ve spent about 21 plus years in the construction industry. Really done every position from labor all the way up to owning my own company as well. About 20 months ago, I decided to shift kind of what I've been doing and, you know, work as a consultant, help residential builders systematize their businesses, help them become more profitable, help them become more efficient.
Eddie: Very nice. So today we've determined that selling is what you are going to bring to the agenda and teach us about. So I want to hear from you, like, what's your angle, man? Like what is different about what you would tell us about selling?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah. I think for me, way back when I kind of fell into this construction business, my wife—well, my wife now, but girlfriend at the time—had bought a house and I just kind of naturally was good at it and just kind of fell into it. I didn't have any business training, didn't have any accounting training, and I definitely didn't have any sales training. And it's something that I've learned over the years about sort of how to do this, and how do we connect with people on this kind of primal or emotional level—which is part of what we'll talk about today—in able to kind of develop a relationship with them. As opposed to kind of looking at things as a transactional relationship, how do we look at this in terms of relational selling? And really, again, the starting points for our relationship and how to build upon that.
Eddie: So what would you suggest that would kind of get us a little more focused on relational selling?
Bryan: Relational selling really is, you know, it's the process of kind of moving away from being what we would say as an “order taker” to kind of a “relationship builder.” And one of the lines that I've often used is, I used to tell clients that we're really a relationship company first, and construction’s just something that we do. And the idea is that we're there to connect with people, build this relationship with them. And you know, we always talk about the three words are “like, know, and trust.” I know, I know, that's four words, but there's the three key words there is like, know, and trust, right? That's what we're trying to do and establish with any client that we're working with, whether it's in residential, or commercial for that matter. You know, they're stakeholders in a project and we want them to know that we're there to build a relationship or there to sort of stay present through the whole process. And of course, even after that we're trying to develop this, you know, a long-lasting relationship. So relational selling is really that shift in your mindset from instead of just looking at the next project as the next project, look at it as an opportunity to build a relationship. And when you take that approach, your sales cycle, your psyche, your mindset, everything starts to change. And you start to recognize how you can actually better connect with people on a deeper level. I mean, it's getting a little existential here, but it's really kind of like, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People kind of ideas here that we're bringing to kind of the sales world.
Eddie: And we talk about that book a good little bit. And there's even kind of some internal debate about Dale Carnegie and that whole thing. And the debate is, like, is this a book about manipulation? I like to make the point, like, he drives it home: This has to be genuine. And so that's gotta be a core to this, right? I mean, relational selling as a way to work people and sell them probably doesn't work, because it's not genuine.
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, and I think that there's— It's definitely a great point, and I think there's always different angles and perspectives on how to look at any of these books that we all read. And yeah, you're absolutely right. I think some people might look at it as, is it manipulation? I choose to look at it as, how do I genuinely build a deeper connection with people? Either family members, friends, colleagues, clients, that sort of thing. So this kind of is broader than just selling a residential construction client. It's really about how to form sort of some deep connections. And yeah, you absolutely have to be genuine. So look, if you're not a good person, then it's going to be a problem, for sure. It's going to come off as ingenuine and maybe a little bit dishonest, so to speak. But I think generally speaking, what I can tell you: One of the reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing is there are a lot of really great humans in this industry. And I think that it's a very tough business, and I think that everybody can benefit from, you know, obviously, hopping on podcasts like this. But just in general, building that community and helping each other learn, and that's kind of why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm trying to build a deep connection with everybody out there and help to broadcast the messages and the pains and challenges that I've kinda gone through and I've learned over the years. So definitely, you gotta be genuine for sure. There's no question about it.
Eddie: Well, so, maybe shifting gears a little bit, but tell us about some of the common pitfalls you see.
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, I think the big thing that I would say when people try relational selling is, you know, really comes from maybe a bit of lack of confidence. You know, people don't really know the process and they don't really know how to kind of walk through it. And ultimately, it's not something that you sort of read a book and then all of a sudden, bam, you're a relational seller and you totally get it. The big thing that any of us would say, from a consulting perspective about marketing and sales, is you absolutely have to have a process. So there has to be a very clearly defined path from how do I take a complete stranger to a raving fan of mine, of my company? If you don't have that mapped out, that's usually the good, like really good first place to start, because the pitfalls come in where in between all those different steps, you lose that connection with your client, or you're not driving at something or keeping them engaged. Right? So, yeah, and there's a fine line between building a relationship and basically them losing interest in what they called you for in the first place. So you definitely have to be pushing forward and leading people through this maze, so to speak, without losing sight of the fact that there's a relationship that you're building here.
Eddie: So I'm guilty of using lots of words, but never really getting to my point. One of the things that you've kind of bulleted out for us here in your notes is about messaging, right, and getting that message. So, how do we boil the message down and perfect that?
Bryan Kaplan: Great question, and I love talking about it. So the clients that start working with me, we usually start with this. A lot of people come to me with a message that's really incoherent, difficult for them to explain to me in one sentence. They have to be able to explain it to me as if I'm a six-year-old. It has to be that clear for me that this is what you do, this is who you serve, and this is how you do it. And so, it's basic exercises, but we really want to understand, first and foremost, what is the why for what you do? I know it's something that's wildly out there. Obviously, Simon Sinek wrote a great book, Starting With Why, and there's a couple of great YouTube videos that he's given this speech on, and really boils it down and explains how people will buy on brand. They'll buy on the “why.” They won't buy on the “how,” and the “how” is how I think everyone really focuses their efforts. So you know, we're kind of shifting perspectives here—I think it's a great book for anybody that hasn't seen or read it, and if you haven't seen these YouTube videos, definitely go and take a look at them. But some of the questions that he asks are kind of like, “Who would care if you went out of business tomorrow or stop doing what you're doing?” You know, would the future of the world be any different if you stopped doing your work? Why do you exist? And other than for the purpose of making money, why does your business exist? These are very broad existential type questions, of course. But the idea of messaging is to really start to understand, first and foremost, who you are, why you started your company, and what it is that you guys do really well, and how you kind of serve that niche of people that you work for. And it's only then, when you start to understand that all, that you can really come up with a message. Otherwise, what the typical behavior we see is, everyone just goes and finds a website of a builder that they like and then they just kind of mimic that whole sort of theme, the messaging, the process, all that sort of thing. But it doesn't come— You know, a moment ago we were just talking about being genuine, right? And it has to come from within you because we all have our own sort of unique selling proposition. We have to kind of extract that and pull it out, put that front right in the center for people to see and basically get them to, you know, we use it to kind of magnetize them to us.
Tyler: There's so much meat on the bone that we can pull off of this. Going back to finding our “why,” and finding what we're good at—How would you approach finding what you're good at? ‘Cause I feel like in a lot of cases, people have this idea of what they're good at, but they're not actually good at the thing. So how do you boil off the fat there and really, I mean, is it down to just what you enjoy? Or is it to what you're good at?
Bryan Kaplan: You know, I think it has to speak to the passion of course that you have. So if it's for residential construction, commercial construction, relationship building, whatever the core aspect of what you really enjoy, there's a passion for, that's really where it's kind of going to come from. I also like people to think about where they want to go. Because we want to think about where, kind of, you know, Stephen Covey would say, “Design with the end in mind.” We always want to look at what is the future result we want for ourselves, for our family, for our friends, for our employees, and for our clients, and how do we sort of then of course form that roadmap to get there. And then, another great point—which I know we're going to get to a little bit later, but I got to grab this one early just because it's such an important, such a valuable source of information—is, you mentioned how, you know, where does this come from, right? Where you might think your why is something like this, but really ultimately sometimes we need a mirror to be able to reflect that to ourselves. And one of the greatest places that you can go to learn about yourself is your past clients. Current and past clients. It’s actually talking to them and asking them, “Hey, what did we do well? What was unique about the experience? What matched what we said at the beginning throughout this entire experience, but what could we do better?” I mean, there's so many questions that we can ask there. And so one of the things that I do with people when we're going through the messaging exercise is we do something called the “point of difference worksheet,” and we want to basically send out—we kind of have like a standardized message and we pick a few questions—and we send it out to, we make a list of all of our past clients, current clients, all that sort of thing, and we send it out to those people and we try to get that feedback back from them. And then we don't edit any of it. We look at the exact words that they use, the verbiage, the way they put the phrases together. What's similar, what's dissimilar, you know, what can we really learn? And you know, I'll tell you that as a consultant, of course there's a lot of self-reflection on a daily basis, but any entrepreneur should really take away from this is being able to look in the mirror and learn about yourself and learn about your business is one of the greatest ways that you can succeed in the world in general. So you know, your clients have a lot of feedback for you, and going to them about what's kind of your differentiator in the market is really, really key.
Tyler: That's a hard pill to swallow. I know it is, from just talking with people in the industry and even from my own perspective, it's hard to admit when you're wrong. It's hard to get that criticism back. It's hard to hear that feedback. But like you said, it's so critical. It's so important. So, shifting gears. So in preparing for the interview, you wrote out all of this stuff and I really gravitated towards one thing. You said to “be like Yoda.” So what does that mean when you're talking about sales?
Bryan Kaplan: So for everybody that's listening that might be familiar with Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller, it's a book that I read that I just absolutely love. It really opened my eyes to a very different perspective in terms of, not only relational selling, but just branding and positioning in your market and how you speak about your company. So it's all of course related to messaging and all of that. And you know, the main premise of the book, if I was to summarize it up, is basically let the client be the hero of the story. Don't position yourself as the hero of the story. And so when we say “Be like Yoda,” Yoda is the guide. That's kind of what the book talks about. It talks about how, you know, your client is the hero. The client has a problem, so there's usually a villain involved. So maybe they have a house that's falling apart that they need to renovate or remodel, or they need to build a new house because their family's expanding or their in-laws are moving in, or whatever it is. So they have a problem, and they need a guide. They need someone to walk them through this journey as opposed to solving the problem for them, right? Which is where I think a lot of entrepreneurs get steered to in terms of thinking of problems and solutions when you're building a business. And it's not to say that that's incorrect, it's just that this shift in positioning can really help you, again, act as a guide and emotionally walk somebody through the whole process. Now, storytelling in general is such a powerful thing. We all know that. It creates information gaps, right? When we start a story, it’s why when you're putting your kids to bed at night, a story will just knock them out, sometimes before the resolution happens. But it opens up and it gets the mind working about, okay, well I've got this hero, I've got this problem, and now they're going through this whole path. So you look at any movie, you look at any book—once you read this book, Building a StoryBrand, it ruins every movie for you. ‘Cause you kind of know what the plot is right before the movie even starts to get going. But basically the idea is that you're walking somebody through this journey to the end point where they realize their outcome or their goal that they've been trying to achieve, and it's really the idea of letting them think they are the hero. They're the ones that actually did this. We guided them through the process.
Tyler: It's playing the background. You know, you're sitting in the backseat and you're just saying, “Oh, take this turn.” You're guiding them. And I love that.
Eddie: We're really good in construction about making a hero out of ourselves. I mean, you think of the jobsite trailer meeting and—
Tyler: We've talked about this before, yeah.
Eddie: We've talked about this before, but how much chest beating goes on. I think we carry that over in marketing, and in a lot of ways we figure, if I look like or can convince somebody that I'm the best, they'll use me. Maybe what we're talking about here is coming at it in a much different perspective. It's more of an empathetic perspective.
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think the big thing is we have to recognize that they buy on emotion, they don't buy on logic. And so when we look at, and Donald kind of unpacks this in the book and he talks about, you know, why most companies, a lot of companies would fail, or just become stagnant and have trouble sort of capturing or retaining market share, is because they sell solutions to external problems. And so, he talks about the three different types of problems, which I'll break down now. So we've got our internal problems, we've got external problems, and we've got philosophical problems. And so if I relate this to, say, the home building industry, if we have a client and perhaps this client's pregnant and they're going to have a baby in November. Just say, you know, their internal problem for them is that she, most likely she's feeling she needs a space that's finished, that's safe, that's clean. There's a security part to it, right? That's the emotion behind everything. The external is, they'll tell you, “Oh we have, you know, our child's due in November” kind of thing. That's the external problem. And then the philosophical problem is really—and this transcends more than just those two examples—is kind of like, they want to be part of a bigger story. They want to be part of a brand, they want to be part of a pack of winners. So when we talk about the construction industry, nobody wants to go through and experience and feel like they got taken advantage of, or their house wasn't what they got in the end, and they want to be part of almost like, you know, kind of like a cult if you will. So if you have a business owner that's really, or a company in your area that's really successful, people are attracted to that, right? So that's kind of on the philosophical side. But the big key here is that we have to focus on the internal problems. And that's— How you get to those internal drivers is through that relationship building, that relational selling, right, is really getting down to what's behind. When someone says something to you, it's usually the external response they're giving you. We always have to ask them, “Hey, what's actually really behind this?” Like, let's unpack this a little bit further.
Eddie: Yeah, you mentioned a minute ago something that triggered the whole reputation thing in my head, right? Wanting to be a part of a pack of winners or wanting to, I mean, wanting to be associated with something that is quality. ‘Cause I don't think anybody wants to just say, “Well yeah, I bought the crappiest low cost option that I possibly could buy.” You know, maybe we do that with some things, but our home is something we take a little pride in, right? That's our place. So what about this reputation thing? Like, how can we manage that reputation?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, I think that's a great, the last word that you used there is underutilized. And I think it's one of the things that is, you know, I've seen over the years—and I'm guilty of this as well when I was working construction businesses and running my own business as well—is, you know, I mentioned how going to your clients can be an incredible wealth of information to help you learn about yourself, your company, what you guys do well, what you don't do well. And I think the idea that I always try to get people or impress upon people is that this is really like this unpaid sales force for you. And so if you can manage the relationship really well from the moment that they first contact you all the way through the experience of designing and then producing or production of your home or project, and then all the way through the closeout and beyond, the message I would give people is that, if it's been a few months since you last spoke to any client, it's been too long. And you know, approaching this from, you know, at the beginning you kind of asked me, “Hey, how do we start this relationship, relational selling type of technique?” And really it comes down to our mindset, thinking that people are going to become part of your family. You know, it's kind of like I always, with every client that I work with, whatever their company name is, I kind of say it's the XY process, or it's the XY family, or it's the XY brand. Like we talk about it in that context that you're becoming part of the family. And so the relationship never really ends. And so when we talk about reputation management, if you approach it really at the beginning of this whole relationship that you're building this relationship that's going to extend for a very long time, then ultimately it's going to provide you dividends over the course of, not only the project, but then well beyond that. So anytime they're having a dinner party, anytime they're anywhere and someone mentions, “Hey, I've got a remodeling project or a new house build that I'm looking to do, or even a store outfit that I'm now looking to do,” you are going to be front and center in those people's minds.
Eddie: Alright, so, there's nothing worse than just busting your butt working really hard and having like an estimate together and thinking, “I'm going to close this deal,” and then having a customer just quit calling. I want to know, like, why? Why is that happening?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah. And when clients ghost you, it's so frustrating for sure. And you know anybody that follows me, or if you're just getting to sort of know me through this podcast and you're going to start reading stuff I've written, I'm a large proponent of not doing free estimates, not doing work for free. It's a dovetail into this whole idea of relational selling. We're trying to focus on that relationship first and the bid second. And one of the big things about this is that, when you're doing, when you're using relational selling, what you really always want to focus on is the future outcome for somebody as opposed to the features of what it is that you guys are talking about. So a great example, you know, you've brought up that estimate and how it's, you know, you’ve busted your tail putting it together and all of this and then they kind of ghost you, they just disappear on you. And you know, I think anybody listening to this that does in person, you know, budget reviews or estimate reviews with clients knows this pain really well, where everything can be going really great. Maybe you’re already into a project and you're working, you're just having a budget review this, this transcends kind of all phases of the build and all that. And you end up going down this rabbit hole in this one conversation, and suddenly, everything that’s been great—you know, we always say that my client doesn't remember the 95 percent of everything you did well, it was just the 5 percent that didn't go well—all of a sudden you land in this rabbit hole where you're dissecting this one cost and this one little issue, and it just completely changes the mindset for somebody, right? So it's just, it takes them way out of that sort of future outcomes sorta zone into this feature conversation where often money becomes a conversation inside of this, and it just creates this tension point for people. And so it's something that everyone listening to this should really think about the next time you're going to go present something. You know, sometimes you're looking for content to actually lead through in a meeting, and I get that, but try to focus on that future outcome for a client and think more about their emotional drivers, their internal reasons why they have this problem. Try to show yourself as the guide and the solution to their problem, you really stay out of, as best you can, stay out of those feature conversations. Whenever you feel it's going down that road, try to kind of veer it back to that future conversation.
Eddie: People want to be a part of a bigger story. They want to be a part of a brand, they want to be a part of a pack of winners and you want to help them understand how you get a solid reputation and you're going to give them something more than just this build they're asking for. You're helping them solve that external issue they're telling you about and you're, by that, solving the internal thing that they're actually worried about, right? That baby’s coming and they want to make sure that it's got a good room. So we're going to act as a guide. Well, so what do we do from there? Like how are we going to give that client a plan from there? Like what are we going to do to help them down that road?
Bryan Kaplan:Yeah, for sure. You know, I think the big thing is we have to recognize that they buy on emotion, they don't buy on logic. And so when we look at, and Donald kind of unpacks this in the book and he talks about, you know, why most companies, a lot of companies would fail, or just become stagnant and have trouble sort of capturing or retaining market share, is because they sell solutions to external problems. And so, he talks about the three different types of problems, which I'll break down now. So we've got our internal problems, we've got external problems, and we've got philosophical problems. And so if I relate this to, say, the home building industry, if we have a client and perhaps this client's pregnant and they're going to have a baby in November. Just say, you know, their internal problem for them is that she, most likely she's feeling she needs a space that's finished, that's safe, that's clean. There's a security part to it, right? That's the emotion behind everything. The external is, they'll tell you, “Oh we have, you know, our child's due in November” kind of thing. That's the external problem. And then the philosophical problem is really—and this transcends more than just those two examples—is kind of like, they want to be part of a bigger story. They want to be part of a brand, they want to be part of a pack of winners. So when we talk about the construction industry, nobody wants to go through and experience and feel like they got taken advantage of, or their house wasn't what they got in the end, and they want to be part of almost like, you know, kind of like a cult if you will. So if you have a business owner that's really, or a company in your area that's really successful, people are attracted to that, right? So that's kind of on the philosophical side. But the big key here is that we have to focus on the internal problems. And that's— How you get to those internal drivers is through that relationship building, that relational selling, right, is really getting down to what's behind. When someone says something to you, it's usually the external response they're giving you.We always have to ask them, “Hey, what's actually really behind this?” Like, let's unpack this a little bit further.
Tyler: Hey, Trello, sponsor our show.
Eddie: Right? How many times have we mentioned them?
Bryan Kaplan: I should get paid. I talk about it so much and I invite every single client that works with me to Trello. I should definitely get sponsored as well. If you're listening, Trello—
Tyler: Yeah, really. But I mean, okay, on that note, like they've worked through that process that you were just speaking of, and they've turned us into raving fans of theirs. We find value in what they provide. So, I mean, great example.
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, absolutely.
Eddie: Residential sales, like you mentioned, like what would they say about you at a dinner party in your notes here—and it's like residential sales in particular, just that person to person type of word of mouth that just gets out. You do get this cult following, right? Like, oh man, if you're gonna, if you're going to do that, you need to do a bathroom remodel, you're going to have your kitchen remodeled. They're over there at the dinner party looking at your kitchen and you're like, “Who did this? Who did this?” And they're like, “If you're going to get done, you got to get with these guys. They were amazing. They were clean, they were respectful. They're great to do business with, came on time.” That's what you're looking for. That's the best sales you can get, right? I mean, just having somebody say that for you.
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, for sure. We always use that metric of CPA, Cost Per Acquisition or cost per client. And it's virtually zero at that point, because you've made them a raving fan. They've paid you for the whole process. And hopefully you've got your numbers in check and you're well set up so you're actually profiting on every project. But ultimately, yeah, that CPA is really at zero and having that unpaid sales force is just huge.
Eddie: So how do you help a person get to a decision point? Like how do you help them get to something actionable where it's like, yes, I want to move on this thing?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah. So I mean, we have, kind of in that process, we're walking them through the process, we're helping to kind of close that story gap a little bit for them so they understand what it's gonna look like now, how I'm going to walk them through this whole process, and how we're going to land at that sort of outcome. And then, you know, one of the big things is we have to call people to action. People in general like to be told what to do. It's why detailing your process works so well, because they start to understand, it's like I said a moment ago, this is what we expect of you and this is what you can expect of us kind of thing. And so usually it's about, again, it's relationships that's selling. So you're getting that “like, know, and trust.” You're building specifically that trust factor where they get to the point where they're like, okay, these guys have their stuff together, they have a process, they've listened first and foremost and they've heard where we're at and what our big drivers are and they've unpacked that for us and we feel comfortable with them. And now, time in the selling process to kind of go in a little bit for that close, right, is going to call to action and saying this is what next steps look like for us.
Tyler: So how do we help them avoid failure?
Bryan Kaplan: So I mean, first and foremost, we have to have our own process in check and we have to have all these, whether it's standard operating procedures or checklist system, financials, all of these different project management tools in check, so that we can actually do what we say. And that's one of the things that I would mention is that having a process is fantastic. You absolutely need it, but you also have to be able to walk the walk. So you know, your ability to help people avoid failure is really contingent upon how well-structured you are as a company. Now assuming that you are well-structured, ultimately it's about walking them through and kind of following through on everything that you say you do. And so, by showing them how the process works, you're showing them maybe some of the pitfalls that could kind of come out or come into play in the process. And one of the things I'll tell you is that clients in general really want to look at their builder as a sounding board. Because they're getting a lot of information from a lot of different people when they're considering a remodeling or a new custom home project. Everyone's got an opinion, right? Your uncle's got an opinion, your aunt's got an opinion, you know, even your nephew probably has an opinion, who's six years old, you know? And the reality is that it's not uncommon, you know, we see people— It's funny, I was talking to a client the other day and he was telling me how they've got a client right now. And you know, one of the things that I do with my clients, and I've always kind of done this as I try to recognize what personality type people are that I'm dealing with. So if I have a client that I know is kind of like a questioner, that they're going to question every single thing that we ask of them, then there's a different approach that I take with this. Because I know, and I just have to preface it in my mind that they're going to ask every single person. So my client was telling me how they asked every single person, including him as the president, at this meeting, and then they asked the framer what the framer would do. And it was something about, like, tile, like a tile backsplash or something, something completely unrelated to that trade sort of work. The interesting part about it is that again, dovetailing to the sounding board part, that's what clients are really kind of looking for. And so how do we steer them clear? Well, we have to listen, we have to hear them, and we have to be their sounding board, right? We have to be able to lay out a plan for them, help them understand what it looks like to work together. We set those expectations and our call to action, and then through all of this, you put that all together and then we have to obviously live up to what we say we're going to do and be able to walk them through that without kind of stepping in those potholes.
Eddie: At the end of it, it seems like we're just trying to help people, right? We're trying to help them with the problem that they have, answer the answer, whatever that pain point is. At the end of each interview, we always love to just get the unique perspective of our guests. And so, as it pertains to selling and you as an encourager of this industry, if we gave you a megaphone that everybody could hear, what would you say?
Bryan Kaplan: Yeah, and such a tough one. I've been thinking about this for a little while just because there's so many great takeaways here. You know, I honestly think that the big one for me is, you know, reading that book really kind of changed my whole perspective on how I look at sales, how I look at marketing and all of that. And it's just that subtle positioning of every time you create something, whether it's on your website, it's a document that you're going to give to a client, whatever it is, you're building a trade show booth, just to always imagine who you're building it for and position it as speaking to them. Position it for them to be the hero of the story. And you know, kind of like you said a little while ago, you're kind of in the background, right? You're there as a strong force and a guide, but you're not the one that is telling people XYZ. You're guiding them through this, letting them come to their own sort of success thinking it's on their own. Of course, you've been there the whole time, you know, kind of like Yoda was in the star Wars trilogy. So that kind of idea, I think that that's the main message I'd like to kind of share with everybody today.
Tyler: Well Bryan, where can people find you?
Bryan Kaplan: So there's lots of lots of spots all over a lot of the popular platforms. So it's @constructionconsulting.co on Instagram. You can search my name on LinkedIn, which is Bryan with a Y and the last name is Kaplan with a K. You can also email me email@example.com, and then of course, no surprise, the website is constructionconsulting.co. So lots of places to find me there.
Tyler: Thanks for joining us today, man.
Bryan Kaplan: Awesome, guys. It was a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
Tyler: Thanks for joining us today. I just wanted to take a second and point you at a couple things. First things first, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Be transparent. Tell us what you think. If you want to write a small review, that would be awesome. Go check out our new website! We're really excited about it. We've got a couple cool lists on there for you guys to check out as well, to show you some of our favorite things. Also, take a second, go like us on social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. You can find us at Construction Brothers Podcast. You can find links to any of our guests and any other things we discussed in the show notes. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you so much. Have a great day.