Marketing Versus Reality (feat. Hamzah Shanbari)


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SHOW NOTES


Hamzah brought us a non-bias view of technology. We get to take a look into digital reality, 360 imaging, and other technologies and what is really under the hood of these techs. Hamzah’s position with Haskell’s Disrupt Tech puts him in a great position to be an authority on how these technologies can truly empower businesses and individuals. We broke out into a really awesome rabbit trail about implementation and how to create value in task that may feel menial.


If you have anything we missed, feel free to text us! - 478-221-7009

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TRANSCRIPTION


Tyler: (02:18)

Yeah. So today we're bringing on Hamza Shanbari, and he's going to be talking to us about this because he works with Haskell's disrupt tech and they go out and they try out all sorts of different applications and different methods on, on job sites. And we felt like he would be perfectly geared to talk about this. And he didn't disappoint. He brought us a lot of great topics to talk about. We talked about mixed reality and the HoloLens, and we talked also about three 60 imagery and things along those lines. And he had a lot of great feedback. Talking about some of the disconnects there are between what you see in the marketing content and what actually happens out on the job site.


Eddie:

Right. But I think from a fair and balanced perspective, he was a non-biased source when it came to a lot of this construction tech, because he had actually used it. He was a practitioner, not just a talking head. So I liked that.


Tyler:

Yeah, that's what we we've really tried to do is steer into the practitioners so we could get the real scoop on what's really happening with this technology because there's so much technology out there right now. We know this we get emails every day from people wanting to share their application with us, show us what they've made. Then that's great, but really getting down to how does this really help the people on the job site? The people really doing the work. That's what we're trying to dial in on here. And that's why this combo just, it did that for me. You know, it brought back the the curtain a little bit more for us to see under the hood. See what we're getting when we're paying for these apps.


Eddie:

Yeah. Let's, let's get in here and talk about it.


Tyler:

Heck yeah, man. All right. So here is our conversation with Hamza Shanbari.

Alright Hamza thank you so much for joining us today, man. Can you tell us who you are and what you do?


Hamza: (04:35)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again for having me. My name is Hamza Shanbari, I'm the manager of Construction Technology & Innovation here at Haskell. We actually work as a separate entity called Disrupt Tech within Haskell that focuses mainly on looking at new technologies. How do they get implemented? What efficiencies they're increasing, value they're bringing. Look into lessons learned, collect all that feedback, [then] report on it. We actually also function as the corporate function venture arm. So we try to make some investments in this space as well when it makes sense.


Eddie:

Well that's why you are here? Right? So we brought you in as the boots on the ground expert, because that is what you do. You're the expert that's going to speak honestly about what's marketing and what's reality. And so we're going to get into a few fun topics today as it pertains to construction tech and your experiences, which I'm very excited to hear about. So I guess we'll kick off. The first [question] is worker tracking. So you guys have experimented with that. What's your experience there with worker tracking?


Hamza:

Absolutely. So that's something that, right off the bat, we ever started talking about is "so how do we track our workers today?" That was like our first question of the day. So we went and we visited a couple of job sites. And of course, when you believe it is, it's still paper and everybody comes in and signs their name. When they got in, when they got out. Somebody has to take that information and go put it in Excel or upload it to protocol or whatever they're using. So we thought this was a very good low hanging fruit that we can just focus on, go in and just automate that. So you're not really worried about when did somebody come in, how many people were in each crew and all of that stuff that goes with it. And of course the space right now is exploding. So there's so many companies that do worker tracking today and they're increasing every month, I kid you not. And you talk to all these different companies, they have a very, very similar approach. So there's different kind of like technology, is it BLE versus GPS versus, you know does it require infrastructure? Does it not? And you look at their marketing materials and it's all up in the cloud, right? It's like, you just put this tracker on your worker and you never have to worry about that ever again.Your time sheets, all compiled for you. Push to Pro-core for you, nothing to worry about. Of course that's not the case, right? So that's marketing part.


You take that technology, you go to the job site and you implement it. Of course, you're going to get a little bit of pushback. So one of the first things that we immediately encountered is workers saying, "no you're not tracking me", and you can't really enforce that, right? Because one, you're not contractually obligated to actually have those tags on the workers. So the subs pushed back a little bit. When you got to unions, unions also kind of threw a fit a little bit saying, no, this is violating worker privacy. And then we kind of just went into the route of, all right, let's sit down at the table, let's talk about pros and cons, what this technology can provide against what are your concerns and how we can mitigate that. And the first thing is privacy concerns. Immediately you show them that this tracks within the job site, and as soon as you get out of the job site....And you have to actually show them that by holding the tablet and like, geo-fence everything, I'm like, "look, I'm hopping outside the job site, I can't see where I'm at." You have to kind of show them that. All those questions that they're asking, you have to show them that they're not true. So we're not really going to be looking at, how many hours did you spend idle or stuff like that. And in the case of unions, we flipped it on the safety part. Like in case of an emergency there's an evacuation and the building and the facility or wherever, you want to make sure that everybody got out safely. And if anybody is still in the facility, you want to know who they are and where they are. When was the last time they were pinged by the system. So all these different nuances that, of course, they're not going to tell you in the marketing part. But it's really interesting. And this is all just talking the human part, we haven't even gotten to the limitations of the actual technology itself.


Tyler:

I think that the human part is something that we often forget about too. And the reason I love the conversation about worker tracking is because, yeah, okay. You just clip it on your clothes or, you know, on your hard hat or whatever, and yeah, it just works. It just works, just do it, whatever. But then there's that reluctance of people not wanting to be tracked and forgetting sensors is another thing that I know you had mentioned while we were talking. And it's just, these are the little things that we don't think about when we're looking at the marketing materials and everything's sunshine and giggles and they hand you a hot towel while you're using their application.


Hamza:

Absolutely. I mean, again, the human part really comes in when you're talking about, when they don't understand it. And when they don't understand why it's there. The forgetting is really intentional most of the time from what we were looking at. I forgot it at home or I forgot it somewhere. I didn't charge it. That's a whole other thing. So there are others that, you know, you need to charge every other week or so. And that's just become something that you lose data. And whenever you start losing some data throughout the week the superintendent just throws it out the window. They're like, "no, this isn't enough information. I have this person that doesn't have hours, then why am I trusting all the other workers?"


Eddie:

That's the process of being that bleeding edge versus you're out there and you're trying the new thing. I think if they saw it work a hundred percent right away, everybody be like, "Oh, okay, you proved me wrong," but man, they're looking for you to trip up and they're ready to throw it out.


Hamza:

Right. And that's, I mean to their benefit. And I always kind of go back to that analogy of the cartoon that of two cavemen that are pushing a cartwheel with square wheels and somebody saying, "Hey, I have round wheels." And they're like, "no, we're too busy". I don't believe that. Right. I believe that, yes, they are busy, but you can't really just stop what you're doing to put on those round wheels. But if you give me a card that has the round wheels in it immediately, and all I need to do is just run with it, that's when you get that adoption, right. It's like when they not only understand the value, that's the most important part is understand what value you're trying to bring, but as soon as you hit the ground running, they start seeing the value.


Tyler:

The point that you made too about, going to sell this to some of the workers and then they rotate, [which happens because] of unions. That was something that down here in the South it's not as prevalent and so I wasn't aware of that. That's just the thing that I wouldn't have thought of.


Hamza: (11:52)

Yeah. I mean, that's something that we weren't aware of coming to projects either. Literally we were like, okay, so this is the sub, this is how many crews you're getting per week. And then there's like different people showing up I'm like "what's up with Jose or whatever", and they're like, "Oh no, it's just me today". So we have to onboard again. And it's like on a weekly thing. You're like literally onboarding new people every week because that's the contract. The contract says, I'm going to send you this number of crews for this number of workers and they're going to get the job done. It doesn't say anything about the same people. And that's a funny thing because we lost a lot of trackers. I don't know where those workers went. I can't go back and track them and say, "Hey, can I have my sensor back"?


Eddie:

So there's the whole negative side of, you know, I don't want that accountability or I don't want you tracking me. There's the struggle with adoption, but what about the positives? Like what kind of things did you see that came out of this that were good?


Hamza:

Oh, the positives. So, yeah. Again, the main thing that we try to focus on is like, this is not only a tool to alleviate some of the mundane tasks for the people on the job site trailer. Those are the folks that we're trying to focus on as much as possible, because that's where the work is actually being done. There's a lot of data and a lot of manual stuff, and you can get error prones that doesn't match up. So the main aspect for worker tracking is actually getting accurate, reliable worker tracking worker timesheets, right? That's the bottom line value, right? Without any interference, without any manual input. But then you get layers of additional features that you don't [know about]. Some of the marketing materials don't even talk to it. Which is like, "alright so I got this number of crews of this number of people, and they completed the task in this many days." This starts to give me a benchmark of how long it takes for each task. And you can actually compile all that information and down the road actually use it to schedule the next project. Or plan it accordingly. So all of these productivity measures, things that we didn't look to measure but the data was there, so we just looked at it and it's like, "Oh, okay. We can use it for this" which has got us benchmarking productivity for each activity. Safety is something that's super huge, of course, in the entire industry, not just Haskell. And that's one thing that you cannot emphasize enough. And we talked to them like "this, isn't going to be something that you see day in, day out. This is going to be when an emergency hits and you need to know where everybody is." If any, national disaster, any collapse of facilities, anything else that you want to know where those workers are so you can extract them safely if God forbid that happens.


Tyler:

Immediately I think of like the Hard Rock [Hotel] and everything that happened there. That would've been a very valuable thing to have, to be able to locate your employees.

Kind of a bit of a rabbit trail here but I guess a couple weeks ago, we talked to Renee Marcos and he was talking about automating scheduling. And I'm thinking through while you're, you know, pitching how long it's gonna take to do a specific task with these trackers. How long do you think it's going to take before we start seeing that information kind of become global and pour back into our scheduling softwares? Like that?


Hamza: (15:25)

It's a great question, but again, yeah, that's kind of like pivoting a little bit. We know Renee we've worked with him a little bit, he's great and ALICE is fantastic as well. All depends on the information that you input, right? So you have to tell the AI, this task takes this long by this crews, and it depends on this and you put in all the constraints in it and then it spits out what's the best schedule. And if you know anything about construction, it's like everybody loves sharing data, right? *laughs* Nobody [actually, it's more like] "Nope, my data, you're not looking at my data, this is my data". So it's going to be really hard to see that kind of being on an industry level and not just GC level, at least for the time being from what we saw. I mean, we talked to a couple of other companies, like catalyst was one that's trying to automate some of the pre-construction with very quick ballpark figures. It's like, "you guys have the numbers, you know how much it's going to cost, why don't we all put it in a pool and share that and just very quick [get a ] ballpark figure." And there's a lot of people that are still not onboard with that. It's like, "those are my numbers".


Eddie:

Industry secrets, the thing that makes every contractor just completely different from the contractor that's right down the road.


Tyler: (16:51)

Right. Well, sorry for that rabbit trail there, but I'm just, I was just thinking about that while you were talking about this. I think that could potentially be something that's really valuable. So if anybody knows anybody that can get that done, heck yeah, that'd be awesome. 360 imagery, let's move over into that. So what are you seeing there and what have you guys used it for.


Hamza:

360 imagery is something that we see as super valuable. And not only that, it makes the progress documentation a lot more structured. It also helps us go back and look at data. You can see when things were installed and when it was first seen in those images, but that's way out there using AI, computer vision and whatnot. For right now, what we're trying to focus on is just progress documentation. Right now superintendent, assistant project manager, whoever's on the job site, is just taking pictures once a week, maybe once a month, depending on their reporting. And then all of that is just being dumped somewhere on the server with the regular JPEG naming, so DCS, 001. And everyone is naming it differently because different phones and different cameras... I actually still see superintendents pull out good old cameras. So that's a whole other thing. But one thing is that 360, what it brings is it puts all of that in perspective. So you're talking about where is that image on the floor plan, when that image was taken? And it's all stored in one location, it's all structured. So you can go back and refer to it as a very specific area, very specific time to see what was happening at that time at that location, extremely helpful. There's so much, like tons of service providers right now in the market. We're not going to go through them one by one, but they all have their own different kind of pros and cons.


But of course you go back to the job site and you start implementing it. The system project managers are usually the first in line to be like, "here's your 360 camera. Here's how you use it. Go document the job site." And the first couple of weeks, they're ecstatic. "This is fantastic. All I just got to do is hold it like this, press this on. There's where I'm at." And it takes the picture. Three, four, maybe five weeks later, they start getting sick of it. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and methodical effort too. One of the main marketing aspects out there is, "it's effortless." It's not...believe me, no matter how you spin it off, it's not. There's a lot of effort that goes into planning where those images are going to be taken and then actually being consistent in where you take them and tagging them correctly and all of that stuff. So there are some nuances to it. And all of that of course gets dumped on the people on the job site. It's like, "here's the new shiny tool go do it. This will help you become more efficient." And of course, they're going to see that dip, right? It's like, "ah, no, actually I'm not more efficient spending two hours a week just documenting the job site. I don't need to do that." And of course that's shortsighted because they're focusing on the now. And when they're focusing on the monthly report or the weekly report, they don't need to put all these 360 images. So that's their main thought, which is logical, right? It's like, "I don't need all that information in my report. Why am I taking it?" And it goes back to, how do you show them the value in the long run? Later on, if a dispute comes up, you want to go back and see what was happening at that location, who put up their stuff first? Because that's mainly the first thing that comes to mind, right? It's like, "no, I put my duct and he came and he bumped my duct." So that's stuff that you have to go back and you can look at it that way.


Eddie:

Where maybe robotics comes in. All of a sudden curious now, cause I know you guys have been looking at it. Well, just put it on a robot and it makes it all better. So why is that not a true statement?


Hamza:

Yeah. I mean, technically yes, that's a hundred percent. That's the route that we're seeing is going and SPOT has been highlighted on that and they're working heavily with Holo Builder to automate some of that aspect. There are limitations to that as well. We're working with ghost robotics to automate some of those as well. And the limitations when it comes to the robot is still not fully autonomous. So it can not just go and walk into the job site whenever it was programmed to do. Job sites change on a daily basis. So those are things that you have to take into account. And then we're looking at research, talking about like academic research, cutting edge that is still stuff that isn't even commercial ready yet, where they're scanning while they're moving. So that way they can avoid any obstacles. And I know SPOT has some of those capabilities, but you can actually load the model in there and say, "this is what it should look like versus what you're seeing." And then how do you navigate around it? There's still some limitations to it. And I know there was a big study done by Swinnerton with SPOT of year and Carta. And there it is again, some limitations to what can be automated. Right? As of today, I talked to a lot of people, there still has to be an operator behind SPOT. So that kind of takes off the automation part of it.


Tyler:

So we still got a guy walking around site and capturing this. You mentioned dispute resolution as a great thing that this can later come back and do for you. Other positives you've seen as far as the documentation that you now have and all of, all of this data you're collecting, what are those?


Hamza: (22:37)

It all depends on very specific use cases. So one example that I've heard of is the client requested a change. They wanted to change the window size or drop the cell or something. And of course, "did you see? Yes, here's the change order." The client immediately signs it. "All right, go do it." So now they need to cut through the wall that they just built, but they don't know exactly where the pipes are, so they don't want to cut anywhere. So that's when they're like, "Oh wait, we were actually documenting this. So let's look at the 360 image. Okay. Here's where those pipes are." And you're talking about like, you know, in a hospital setting where there's plenty of pipes, gas, and what have you that you don't want to interrupt. Right? You don't want to cut any of those. So they were able to go back and refer to images before the wall was closed off. So they know exactly where, where to cut to change that window.


Eddie:

Picture files are not light in the world of data. So data storage and the big data problem, how's that enter into all this?


Hamza:

Images are just huge. Right? And then that's the unstructured of it or the, I don't even know if that was a word. [Basically], you save it on the server and everybody saves it in a completely different way. So even when you write the date, do you do 2020/2/16 or 2020/16/2, 2/16/2020. It's like, there's so many ways that people can type in that information and it's all manual and you go back and it's almost not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say impossible, but it's going to take a lot of time scrolling through the images just like one by one, trying to find the right thing that you were looking for is like, "Oh yeah that's the location. But if it was just positioned a little bit higher, I could see what I wanted."


Tyler:

Yeah. The big data problem is something I always come back to personally, as I'm like, "we're creating all this data, but it's again, it's hard to manage and especially picture files." Holy cow. That can get dizzying. And I remember a couple years ago, I actually was able to shoot a wedding, was asked to be the photographer there. And I had 2000 images, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. But I thought I was going to go insane. Like, "how do people do this? This is craziness." And like staying organized and which ones am I going to use, all that stuff. And so it's good to kind of disconnect because it almost feels like, in a way, that we're told that "this stuff is automated down to a level that the software is just going to take care of it for you. You don't have to worry about it", but no, let's step back. There's still management, in this, that happens. So that's why I love the conversations because I think there is a disconnect of reality and what marketing and all these promotional videos show us. It's good to just come back to earth and see what it's really like.


So I want to move to the next topic though, because this is one that really excites me, augmented reality. What have you guys done with that? Tell me all about it.


Hamza: (25:38)

Oh man. That's one of the cool things to do. Right? You get the model, that's being all coordinated and detailed to a level that you might not really need, but it's there. And then you got the guys in the field, or the gals in the field as well, that are actually installing that work. And there's that disconnect. They don't see the model per se, they are still looking at drawings. So we thought, "that's a very cool thing to pursue." And there is again tons of service providers today, mostly focusing...So there's the two applications, right? There's one on the iPad, there's the phone, but the phone is a smaller screen to see anything augmented on it. So there's the iPad version that you can look up and actually augment the model on top of what you're seeing. And then there's the HoloLens, which is something that you would wear and the augmentation would be on top of that. And both of them work. Okay.


Now, how do you deploy it to the field? That's a whole other conversation, right? Because you can talk all day long about how you need to put the marker in the model and the same marker in the same location in the actual world, and then go out and they all just match it and everything will match. And all's fine with the world. When we actually started implementing it and we started looking at it, one of the main things, especially with the older generation iPad, I'm hearing like the newer, the latest one that has LIDAR capability has a little bit better tracking where the one that we started using with the previous model, just before that, where you would augment and everything in the market, everything matches and you start looking up and "yep. My columns line up now I'm starting to look at my ducts and where they should go." And then I start walking around and everything's shifts with me. Right.


So it's called drift. And it's a known issue that a lot of those developers, if you talk to them, you're like, Oh yeah, that's drift. So you'll have to put markers every like however many seeds they tell you, so you can recalibrate it and then actually augment it. So that's one issue. The other issue is how do you use it? Right? Because you're still talking to skilled labor that they know how to get up on the forklift. They know how to hang ducts, you're going to give them the iPad and we're like, "here's how the ducks should look like." They're like, "okay, I have the drawing." It's kind of like the disconnect that it's like, "yeah, that's cool. I mean, how am I going to use it?" You know what I mean? So there's that. I mean, the main value that we're seeing from it right now, and that's something that we're working with one of our projects heavily on, is tracking. I mean, you can see if something is installed in the wrong place, but it has to be like off by a lot in order for you to actually catch it. But what we're trying to use it for mostly is progress tracking. So you would pull it up and you say, "Oh, right. So I see that duct, that duct, but not this duct. So that's not installed." So I'll tell you which to install in the model. It keeps track of that in the backend and spits out BI reports that shows you how much you've completed and how much is left and all that good stuff.


HoloLens has a much better tracking than the iPads so it doesn't do the drifts, but it's a $5,000 piece of equipment that we are having a hard time just like, "here you go, give it to somebody on the field" and maybe they use it, maybe they're not. Or, they're not going to be as gentle with it. I mean the XR10 is a little bit, you know, on a hard hat and a little bit more construction friendly, but we're still seeing that it's a fragile piece of equipment that you need to take care of. One thing that we didn't really anticipate is, I loaded the model in the HoloLens, super excited to go out to the job site, ready to show off. And I'm putting it on and I'm like, "why, why isn't it turned on?" And I'm like trying to troubleshoot, "why isn't it turning on?" And it is on, we [just] can't see anything [because] the bright sun was in my face. I'm like, "Oh, okay. I need to be in a darker place to see this." Even with the brightness setting all the way up, I was barely seeing the menu so I can actually launch the AR


Tyler:

Can't can't you just like, look up at the sun and like tell it to dim or something? Can you just make the sun dim, it seems like it would be easy.


Hamza:

Cool application, right.


Tyler: (30:15)

Dim the sun. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, you just walk around the job site in the dark. What could go wrong? That's usually where there's a smug look from everybody around you when that moment happens. Right. Like the superintendent or whoever's out there, those kind of like... There's a smug look and a walkaway that happens.


Hamza:

Yeah. That's something that I get, I'm super passionate about all these technologies, but I get like really not, I wouldn't say offended, but it's like, man, they shrug. It's like, they didn't see it. Didn't connect. How do I present it differently? Right.


Tyler:

So augmented reality is one of those things, for sure that we're just kind of on that bleeding edge of right now. And you know, we have the first-generation HoloLens here at the office and so we've been keeping our eye on it for a while, especially since we're kind of in the BIM world and we make the models, right. So we want to know how that correlates back out to the field and how we can help people and find ways to help the superintendent. But that first generation versus the second generation, there is a big gap. There has been a big acceleration in technology improvement on those two devices. Strictly from the field of view standpoint. And I have to say I was disappointed when I put on the first gen HoloLens and I was like, "Oh, things are going to be flying around my head. It's going to be great. It's going to be so cool." Yeah. Okay. So poke two holes in a cardboard box and then look through those. That's essentially what you got and it's, I'm like I'm Batman and I can't see anything in the peripheral. So anyway, yeah. I don't want to catch too much shade on it. I think it's a really great technology, but at the same time, just, you know, that was...


Hamza:

I mean, yeah, the applications for it, it's still going to expand as the technology. So the field of view is one of the main limitations. And that's the part that we've really struggled with is like, how do you sell it? I mean, the superintendent, isn't just going to walk the job site with the HoloLens on their head. That's not going to happen. Right. It's like maybe if there is a use case for it, like somebody saw something and they don't know if it's in the right place or not "here, take the HoloLens and go verify." But other than that, I mean, we haven't got to that space yet.


Tyler:

And you know, it's going to take years of experimentation in order to find those use cases. So it's still good that we're taking this stuff out there and unearthing these issues. It's going to be interesting to see in 10 years what we're going to be doing with it. Hopefully we'll have HoloLens ultra or something like that, that'll be even better.


Hamza:

Just like everything around you is augmented. You don't need a device.


Tyler:

You don't even need to get out of bed to build. That thing just does it for you. Just send the robots to the field, have them do it.


Eddie:

Wait then what are the people do?


Tyler:

Have you ever seen Wall-E?


Eddie:

I have, yeah.


Tyler:

It's that get our floating chairs out and we'll have like bumper car battles or something.


Eddie:

Just try to stay thin.


Tyler:

Yeah, yeah. Or not, who cares.


Eddie:

With AR the original, well, I guess when we talked to Jordan Lobber yeah. It really kind of cropped up in our mind, like the whole wearable versus carriable debate, because both seem like they've got maybe some advantages where the wearable, okay, you don't have this drift. But then the thing I can carry with me, like I've always got the iPad with me cause that's what I'm toting around the field, maybe we got a little bit of a drift problem. If the newer iPad fixes that drift problem. Am I hearing kind of a preference toward that thing I can carry? I mean, and again, not casting shade on the XR10, but just like more useful.


Hamza: (34:18)

Absolutely. I would totally agree with that statement. Yeah. I find it is more useful because you can do other stuff with it too. How many things can do with the HoloLens today?


Tyler:

Yeah. Hey, you can watch Netflix. I've done it. It's really cool. Why would I not? You can play robot raid or whatever that game is you, play that out on a job site. That would be awesome.


Eddie:

I was wondering in my head, like, "why, why did we get this HoloLens?" And now it's all been confirmed. I know now it was so Tyler can watch Netflix. In a really cool way.


Tyler:

Yeah, I was told that I could play Minecraft and I still don't have that. So I'm mad about that personally.


Eddie:

You would be.


Tyler:

Oh, so you're just trying to prove a point with the iPad thing.


Eddie:

I am not, I'm more of a fan of the carriable device that can be used for other things.


Hamza:

I'm 100% with you on this.


Eddie:

I just, I just see a better use case for it. I think that...


Tyler:

Gen X telling you what. You guys....


Eddie:

Hey, you know what, I don't want to hear it millennial. We can riff on it on and on about this, but I think it'd be a good time to go ahead and cut and get over to our megaphone question. So, if we gave you a megaphone that the whole industry could hear and we gave you roughly 60 seconds, what would you want to say?


Hamza: (35:46)

Don't give up on technology. That's the main thing because the thing that we're seeing is like, as soon as that dip comes in and, this is what we have identified as a capability trap, it's an industrial term when you apply a new process, the productivity is not going to go up, it's going to dip first day, right? Because you still got to try to figure out the nuances and how to work with it. But eventually, it's supposed to go back up and overtake the benchmark productivity that you have. So the capability trap is something to absolutely look for and be aware of and communicate that with everybody else that's going to use the new technology. But don't give up on it because once it dips and then you'll give up, you've not only lost productivity, but also lost the cost of that implementation. So you can't go back to what you were doing just because you saw that dip. Right. So just trust that technology is going to work as soon as you figure it out, as soon as everything becomes streamlined a little bit. And then it's going to be better.





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