Going Analog in a Digital World (feat. Eric Reinholdt)

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This week we revisit our conversation with Eric Reinholdt. 

If you enjoy going down YouTube rabbit holes like Tyler does, you've most likely stumbled across the 30X40 Design Workshop's channel. The 30X40 channel was started by Architect, Eric Reinholdt, to give a behind-the-scenes look at his design process. It is now one of the most successful architecture channels with over 600K subscribers.

We loved hearing the passion for craftsmanship and art as he talked about what he gets to do everyday. We couldn't be more excited about this episode and hope you go check out his channel as a result!

Special thanks to Eric for taking the time to chat with us!

Text us and let us know what you thought of this episode! 478-221-7009


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Tyler: Hey guys, Tyler here. This week, we are reposting our episode with Eric Reinholdt. If you haven't listened to Eric's episode before, it is one of my favorites. Eric is such an inspirational guy and somebody that we are so honored to have on our show, so we hope that you enjoy it. Also, let us know what you think by texting us at (478) 221-7009. Enjoy it, y’all.


Tyler: Welcome to the Construction Brothers Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Campbell, and with me like is every week: My brother, Eddie Campbell. 

Eddie: Hello, Tyler. 

Tyler: Hello, Eddie. We got an awesome show for you today. We are going to be talking to 30X40 Workshops, AKA Eric Reinholdt. If you haven't seen his YouTube channel, stop everything, go look it up right now because it is awesome. Eric’s an architect and designer and photographer/videographer, and I have loved his videos for the past couple of years as he's been posting them. But we were so honored that we got a chance to talk to him. We're going to get to that in just a moment, but first things first, I would like to bring something to your attention.


Interview: (12:15)

Eddie: Eric, thank you so much for joining us today. Why don't you tell us who you are and what you do? 

Eric Reinholdt: Yeah, well, I'm an architect in Maine. I practice primarily residential architecture, and I've been on my own, I started my business 30X40 Design Workshop in 2013. This is year seven. I also run a little YouTube channel where I sort of promote my work. I use it as kind of a marketing channel, but also as a way to educate the sort of general public on what it is we do in the construction industry and the design industry. So I think of myself not— I think, you know, when I started the business in 2013, I really considered myself to be an architect, and now I consider myself to be many different things. You know, I've written a couple of books, I'm a photographer, I've made some short films—so YouTube creator, lots of different things. That probably speaks to what you guys do as well, right? You're podcasters and we're all our own sort of media companies nowadays, and I find that really interesting. You know, one of the things about being an architect and practicing architecture, building buildings, is that it takes a really long time from that first initial design idea to seeing your finished work built in the field. That can be years. So I think having the YouTube channel and other creative sort of outlets has made practicing this way really interesting to me because I'm a really impatient guy. So I always want to see the sketch that I'm doing, I want to see that thing built in like a week. If that were possible, I'd love that. But it doesn't work that way. So having these sort of, you know, making videos and writing and photography and printmaking and all these other things, having that as part of my sort of creative practice has been really, really important to me. 

Tyler: Definitely. I wanted to kind of start, I guess not quite at the beginning, but I wanted to know, how did you get into architecture? What brought you down this road? 

Eric Reinholdt: You know, like any architect probably will tell you, as a child I played with Lego. I was building scale models, model trains, and as I grew—my teen years, I was mowing lawns, I would take all my lawnmowing money and I'd go and buy plan set books down at the local bookstore. I'd take the plan set books home and I'd redesign the elevations and the floor plans. I really fell in love with technical drawing in high school. I sort of bridge that age range where a lot of practices were drawing by hand for a long time. We've now transitioned obviously into BIM and CAD and all of those things. So I sort of span that age, the analog and the digital age. So I really fell in love with technical drawing. And to me, when I was in high school considering what I was going to do for a job, I wanted to do as little work as possible, and I really considered drawing and building models, play. And so I thought I could either work for industrial light and magic on making Star Wars models and things like that, or I'd become an architect. And so I chose architecture because I literally thought architects just drew all day. That was kind of my naive vision of it. And I thought all architects drew houses, basically, and designed houses. And so once I entered architecture school, I realized there was a lot more to the profession. There was theory and history and structural engineering and all of these sort of techniques of building. So that opened up a whole new dimension to me, but it was, you know, I really approached it as a naive thing. I was going to be Mr. Brady. I mean, I grew up watching The Brady Bunch and Mr. Brady was the architect and I was like, “I'm that guy.” Or This Old House, anytime they had a segment where they had an architect on it, I was like, “That's me.” So yeah, I think that's probably where it started. 

Tyler: Nice. Well, one of the things that I love about your channel is that you really highlight the analog elements of your process. So you had mentioned model making and sketching. Can you go into some detail on that? Like, why model making? Why do you not just start in CAD or start in SketchUp or something like that? What is it there for you that's really important? Like what are you trying to accomplish?

Eric Reinholdt: I've made a lot of videos on my YouTube channel about sketching, as you point out, about model making. And a lot of the criticism I get when I make those videos is like, “Well, there's much more efficient ways to do this. You know, we have CAD, we have BIM, why not just start there?” And I think if efficiency is the end goal, then that's absolutely a valid criticism. But the efficiency isn't the end goal here. The end goal for me is producing better design. I find that when I build things with my hands, when I'm drawing, I'm just able to access different information. This has been proven that the creative process is enhanced by stepping out of the digital environment and working with your hands. One of the reasons why I became an architect was because I like making things with my hands. So just to give that up, just because there's a different or a better way of doing it, I probably would never do that. But what I find when I'm building a model, for example, is that if I have a block of wood or a piece of cardboard, putting these things together in three dimensional space allows me to just access different ideas. It allows me to see it in real time. As I'm sketching and drawing iterations, not only is that a very quick way for me to come up with a bunch of different ideas very quickly, but it also allows me to kind of encode all of the thinking that I have at the time. So if I go back and look through my sketchbooks, that kind of transports me back to the moment that I created that sketch. And a lot of times, I mean, most of our work today is done in a digital environment, right? We're here talking on this podcast on our computers, we're typing an email, we're drawing in CAD or BIM or whatever we're doing—stepping away from that is an easy way to remove distractions. So I can focus much better when I'm just sitting there with my sketchbook. I can take my sketchbook, I can go on a hike. I can get out of the office. And that just allows me to think of, you know, make different connections. And that is an integral part of my process. Even when I take a sketch and I translate it back to CAD, I'm never just then just abandoning the sketching altogether. I'm continuing to print it out and sketch over it. So I have rolls of trace. Like I have, my desk is full of piles of trace. I have notebooks full of sketches. And it's that process of converting the sketch to digital and then printing it out and then sketching over it and then converting it to digital, like that process sort of hones the idea and just makes it better. And I do believe that we have a different way of thinking when we are working with our hands and that hand-mind connection is something that's difficult to quantify, but for me it just works.

Eddie: You're resonating with my soul right now, because I love stepping aside in analog processes. Ty and I were talking before the show and like, I love running. No music or anything. That would drive some people nuts. 

Tyler: It would drive me nuts.

Eddie: But I can get in my head space there. I just, that's a creative time for me. And I love my journal time with the pen and paper. You know, I'm not doing that on the computer. I find that it is a lot easier to be creative when I'm analog. So I love this.

Eric Reinholdt: I mean, it's also another, you know, I think a lot of people criticize this as a means of working because, okay, we're getting the computer. It's much faster to change things. I totally agree with that. But in terms of skill sets—sitting in a meeting, you need to be able to sketch your ideas. If I'm coming out to a job site and I’m meeting with contractors, in order to work some of these details out, you need to be able to sketch and show your ideas and you do that visually in real time. I mean, I don't have a computer out on with me on site, and I'm not revising things in CAD when I'm out talking to contractors or subcontractors. It's happening in a sketchbook, on a roll of trace, or on a piece of cardboard, or on the wood on the wall. It's just, you know, that's an essential skill for communicating your ideas. And the same thing goes for meeting with clients. If I'm sitting across from a client— This happened last week, we're trying to redesign a bathroom. Like I need to come up with five ideas right there in that meeting. Like, I'm not, they're not going to excuse me to go like draft it out on CAD and come up with five different options. It happens right there. And it's just, it's a way of quickly ideating and coming up with new and fresh ideas like that sketch, you know, one sketch builds on another builds on another, and I'm able to take those ideas quickly and just say, “Oh yeah, we can move the shower over here and we can do it.” You know? So it is just a skill that I think is never going to not be a part of an architect's design process.

Eddie: I'm looking at your website here, and I was on here the other day. And coming right off of what you just said, you were sitting directly across from an engineer in one of your videos and you guys are working through design. I love that for multiple reasons. You guys are just iterating this thing together. So I love this non-combative. I love that part because the architect/engineer relationship was actually a good one, something we don't see much of. But you were doing it in the sand, this analog process, like he was showing you why, and you were explaining to him intent. And I loved that trade of ideas.

Eric Reinholdt: That's so important. And I mean, that has to happen. I mean, it's one of the sort of firm beliefs that I have in my business is that this is a collaborative process. Like I can't just design something in a vacuum and expect other people to build it if I don't know something about how they work and what their process is and sequencing. I really do view this as a collaborative process and not an adversarial one. I think so many architects show up with this big ego, and they force designs down people's throats—and not only their clients, but the builders and the engineers—and they act as this big force, right? And that just, it creates all this negative energy on site, in the client's home, where they are. I really am trying to skew that notion of the architect being the sort of master of ceremonies of this whole thing, because really, I think the design gets better by pulling knowledge from everybody. And I see it as my job to kind of corral that knowledge and make sure it's encoded in the design. But you know, not that my idea is better than someone else's idea. It's just, this is really a democratic process. And I'm glad that you saw that and that it came through in that, because that is really the ethos of my business. It's about working with others. And I know you guys have a similar mission with this podcast. I really appreciate that, because the rising tide lifts all ships. I mean, it's not a zero sum game. For me, to be right doesn't require you to be wrong. And so I really, yeah, that's a really strong belief of mine.

Eddie: I love how that process came out, and one of my favorite parts was the engineer speaking to you in very non-engineer terms. Not in a demeaning way, but in a very partnering way where you guys were both just, nobody was out trying to out-design somebody in their language. It was just, here we are, we're building this building together. I love the collaboration. So fun.

Eric Reinholdt: I appreciate that. One of the ways I use the YouTube channel is to show an ideal process. Like there's lots of different ways of building buildings, right? Why not show one that is collaborative, we're all working together, rather than the typical one where it's just butting heads, you know? So yeah. 

Tyler: Yeah, that's something that we see every single day in our segment, because we're more in the commercial realm. The architects, in a lot of cases—not all cases—are going to be that big force in the room and shove it down people's throats, whether they like it or not. I think it's often forgotten that we're also there to help. I appreciate the fact that you see that, too. I think everybody's trying to work together, but we often forget that.

Eddie: Yeah. We were talking to somebody in the architectural side of things yesterday actually, on his podcast, and the comment came up, “I think we build buildings in spite of each other instead of with one another.” And so just breaking that down, I love. And we're BIM guys. I mean, that's what we do a lot of. But even at that, it's the collaboration that happens in a room with the people that you're working with. That, to me, is the really fun part of what we do. It's not necessarily clicking the components in, it's watching it come together as the idea is built, as the brains work with each other.

Tyler: Can we talk about your creative process a little bit more? I know we kinda touched on it, but for all the creatives out there, and this is just something for me, what do you do for yourself to get into that creative mindset? Is it breaking out pencil and paper? What is that? 

Eric Reinholdt: You know, it's interesting because I mean, every designer has their own particular process that's developed over time. One of the really cool ones that I learned about when I was a young architecture student was Maya Lin’s process. Do you know the architect Maya Lin, she designed the Vietnam War Memorial? 

Tyler: I know of that Memorial, yeah. 

Eric Reinholdt: So she won that as, that was an architectural competition that she won at the age of 18. And she likened her design process to laying an egg, where she would take in all this information and she couldn't predict when or how the idea would form, but it would form as if it were an egg. And she would basically lay this egg as an idea. And for me, I always wanted that. I always wanted to be able to take in all this information and then be able to hatch something. And it just never worked like that for me. For me, it's still about taking information. So you know, if I'm meeting with a client, they come to me, generally I'm doing new construction, higher-end residential work. They'll come to me with a piece of land, a piece of raw land, and we'll begin by doing a site analysis. So you gather, you try and understand the topography and the climate patterns and everything about the place, and that includes code restrictions and all of this. And so really the initial phases of the design process start with just collecting information. I kind of put it all together on my desk, and then I started sort of working through like, what are the forces on the site that are really most dominant based on what the client wants to do there? Really I'll start by looking at how those forces might shape where we put rooms, like say a living room or a bedroom, or how do you divide public space and private space? I mean, even in a home, you have public space, like a living room or a kitchen, and you have private space, which are bedrooms. And so what I do is just basically take the whole site plan and I'll overlay a big piece of tracing paper on top of that, and I'll just start sketching out what these forces are and how they might shape where we would put particular rooms. So really it starts off as really kind of bubbles, almost like a bubble diagram, how you might locate spaces. I really look to the site as sort of Genesis for the form of the building. So of course you need input from your client. If they want to do a contemporary house, you have to start thinking about what kinds of shapes of buildings relate to more contemporary forms as opposed to traditional forms. But that kind of comes as a secondary layer to thinking about how the site is actually going to inform where we build on that. So I'll just do a number of sort of plan ideas. I'll come up with really basic floor plan ideas, and they'll be paired with some three dimensional representation. Oftentimes I'll take blocks, I have this set of Froebel Blocks, which are blocks that Frank Lloyd Wright was known for using, but they're just a small set of modular blocks. And I'll start laying those out on the site and looking at how different volumes might work, how it might relate to a view or the topography. And it's literally just layering on ideas. And so I'll build up layers, like I'll have a stack of trace, like layer upon layer upon layer, and it'll all just be iterations and ideas like that. And I will at some point jump into the computer. So just as I've used sketching as a tool, I view the computer as a tool. I'll use SketchUp, I'll start mapping these things out so I can get a sense for what it really feels like to be in a space or standing next to a certain size volume. And over time, this sort of coalesces into just a real basic what we call a massing model. So it's literally, if you think of sort of wooden blocks stacked end to end, it would just be a shape like that. Maybe it has a pitched roof on it, or maybe it has taller volumes and in one spot or another. Oftentimes I'll take a photo of that and I'll sketch over that. So there's lots of different layers to this. And I think that's one of the things that, I guess it keeps me interested as a designer so that I can flip between all of these different mediums, the sketch, the model, the digital model, CAD, start hard lining things. And that process itself eventually coalesces into this concept. And that concept then is paired probably with some images about materials and ways that this structure could look and that gets put into a presentation. Usually I do a keynote presentation. I've got examples of this on my YouTube channel. I'm working with a client right now on this pretty remote island. We're doing kind of an off the grid house, and they've allowed me to document the whole process. So you can actually see that process, see how I start—we start just as I said, almost as if you're zoomed out 30,000 feet above the site and you gradually kind of fly your drone closer and closer to the site. And as you get closer, the building comes into focus. That’s kind of the idea with this design process that you can't start with the finished floor plan. You've got to start way up here and just think about, okay, how does this relate to the site and the general topography and my client's wishes and budget? And then as you work your way through the design process, it starts to come more into focus. So it's these incremental steps. One of the cool things about you just even asking about this design process is I think, you know, as I'm working with contractors and the feedback that I get from from them is like, “Well, just draw it.” But it doesn't happen like that. It's never, I don't just sit down and sort of lay this egg and I have this floor plan. It's a very sort of measured process that happens over many, many months. As you guys know, meetings with clients, you can have all the great ideas in the world and come up with what you think is a fantastic concept, but if it doesn't work for them, it's never going to get built. So there's this process of back and forth. Also very early on in this process, I'm working with builders, I'm working with contractors to say, “Hey, is this feasible?” You know, as soon as we have a building concept, the builder is onboard. Like we're not bidding this out at the end. I don't design the whole thing and wait to see if we can actually afford to build this until the end. I put that upfront. You know, I want builders’ feedback. I want contractors’ feedback right in the beginning, because that helps shape the process. Just like I involve my engineer right in the beginning, because all of those ideas just makes the end product that much better.

Tyler: I love that. I love that. 

Eddie: I like the marriage that is happening here; because, like, just a question that sticks out in my mind, what would be your favorite 3D modeling software?

Eric Reinholdt: My personal favorite? I mean, I've used 3ds Max, and I love that for rendering, but I use SketchUp just because it's so quick.

Eddie: Nice. All right. So here's a flip side of this. Like what would be, you have like a favorite sketchbook, favorite pencil, pens or something like that? What kind?

Eric Reinholdt: So I just actually, I'm manufacturing my own sketchbook now. So I used to use a sketchbook made by Muji, which is this Japanese company, and they stopped making it. So I've made my own, because I was like, well, I'm sick of waiting for them to start manufacturing this again. So I've made my own, which is kind of custom designed for me. It's got a little dot grid in it. And then my favorite pencil is the Kuru Toga. I mean, I've got like, I've got a bin full of my favorite tools here. If it's ink, it's Sharpie ultra fine. I've got thousands of them.

Eddie: See, that's the marriage I love. Because it's not— We think of, I've got to pick one. I'm either going to be a tech guy, I'm gonna be this analog guy. No, no. I'm going to use the great tools for the thing I'm doing at the appropriate times. And that's, I mean, we love hearing about the tools people use and you're a tools guy, but it's the right tool at the right time,

Eric Reinholdt: For sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well said.

Tyler: Speaking of tools, and I've just got, I've got to go back to one of our other episodes where we talked to Clifton Harness and his automation of the design process. I know this is more on the commercial end, but I wanted to kind of get your take, what are your feelings towards automating the design process that you just spoke of? Like as in, “Here is the lay of the land, we're going to put a building here, it's going to look roughly like this, and we're going to iterate on that design really, really quickly. I can get you a hundred iterations really fast.” What's your take on that? 

Eric Reinholdt: That's a hard thing for me to buy into. I would have to understand what the algorithm is that's determining what those iterations are, who comes up with that. It's a really interesting question, because for me, I'm an algorithm of one, right? So why would someone hire me? You know, so if I'm skewing that as a design process, what makes my process more valid? I don't know. But it feels to me I guess less rooted in craft, and I really do view design and architecture as a craft and something that requires lots of embodied knowledge from lots of different pros, and I hope that has come through so far. And that all of that expertise comes together in a way that makes the end product better. And I don't know how you program that into an algorithm. I just, maybe there's a way to do it. That doesn't feel like design to me. I'd be interested to hear your take on it, because this is, I haven't really thought about this much.

Eddie: I want to kind of subdivide a little bit. I think that there's a difference between automating the designs where we're iterating, iterating, iterating on a site, like what we saw out of Clifton and maybe what he was preaching. And so he felt like there were some buildings and some things, some decisions, that are made basically the same way all of the time. And so you mentioned in your process, you have a starting point where you go through data collecting. Kimon Onuma, he also enunciated this very well, that as an architect, he said, well, I start with data gathering. And so having a kind of a paradigm that fits in anyway, like, even if I've got a checklist of yeses and nos that I ask an owner, I do have some kind of algorithm I'm working with. Right? And so, it's how many things can we automate or should we automate, is kind of the question. So do we want to automate out the creative processes or the craft of architecture? I don't think you're going to get too many people signing on to that. I think for the most part, people, they want to see expression and craft in architecture. We all appreciate a cool building. We want to live in a cool space. We want that to be unique to us in some way, because we all have some vision of what we want to be in and how we want to dwell. Well, that part of things is not what we're looking to remove. What we're looking to do is try to make the decision making processes that are base level road decisions, we're trying to make those happen with more consistency.

Tyler: And even from the owner's perspective as well, right? Mainly from the owner's perspective. 

Eric Reinholdt: So how would you use that, as an example, to determine like a foundation system? Like, that's one of the things that I'm struggling with on this project, on this current project that I'm working on. Like, we can't get concrete out on this island. It's just, it's not feasible to do it. So everything that's done has to be hand mixed. So do you just not use concrete? Like where do you start changing the parameters here? Because maybe concrete for a foundation system actually makes the most sense, because we're basically sitting on a precipice here, sloping down in the ocean and we got a ton of water coming down this hill, but maybe steel isn't in the budget. Like I just don't know how that level of decision, like where you automate that. 

Eddie: That's the yeses and nos and data tracking that artificial intelligence can do, where I’ll see how a decision was made, I’ll house a number of parameters that I know are sound for decision making. If it's more than this then no, if it loses structural integrity then no, if this has to happen then no. If this can happen then yes, this is an option. And what you're trying to do is get it kind of through the funnel, to where you're just funneling down to the options that you actually have, so that you didn't have to go through 50 options, you only have to go through four, and then, you know, the ups and downs of those four options. 

Eric Reinholdt: Yeah. But then you actually have to assign those options aesthetic values, too. And that, to me, that's— Because architecture sits in that base between engineering and aesthetics, and there's a financial component to it, too. So building's a complex thing. And I think whenever you try and automate things, you rub up against these things. And especially when you're trying to automate what is an art form. Because you could do the same for a painting, right? I suppose.

Eddie: You could. And the loss of feeling, the loss of craft, the loss of expression are pushback. And they are valid pushback, because we, I mean, we want those things just in the basic thing that makes us human. We want to be able to do this. So it's the exercise of creativity that can really make us “wow” at something. 

Tyler: Yeah. I'm thinking of form over function. Like I guess there are buildings that are geared more towards function than the actual art form.

Eddie: Like a prison. 

Tyler: Yeah. Great example. 

Eddie: Right? You're welcome. 

Tyler: Thanks. Like a storage building. Parking garage. Those are the sorts of things that he's really focused in on automating.

Eric Reinholdt: But aren't those some of the structures that we could benefit from having a more artistic eye and vision? I mean, I know some architects who have designed some really beautiful parking garages, or even graphic designers who have done an overhaul on a parking garage. And to me, I think, you know, I'm not suggesting it needs to happen in every aspect, but it brings up interesting questions. Like, what should we automate the design of and what shouldn't we? I mean, I can see there's obvious financial reasons for automating the design of a McDonald's or something like that, right? But maybe those are the buildings that we shouldn't be automating. I don't know. There's so many of them. 

Eddie: I mean, just springing on that, do we have just a misconception that's baked in about, well, this is what a prison is supposed to look like? It's interesting when somebody intervenes and adds a new thought, and that new thought ends up having an impact on, like, let's say the inmates. All of a sudden, it is matter of how we've designed that building all of a sudden has a positive impact on the interactions of the people that use it.

Tyler: Well, didn't that happen with the Guggenheim as well? Like whenever that was built, everybody was saying, “This is ridiculous, you should not build something like this. This is preposterous.” But now after it's built, tourism has spiked in that community. So there are other effects that you don't realize. So maybe having that artistic eye is better than just having the algorithm say, okay, yeah, this is what a museum is supposed to look like.

Eddie: You gotta love the conversation, the push pull, ‘cause that push pull is going on in our industry right now. All of this, just the back and forth, people are like, “Agh,” you just kind of feel that little bit of uncomfortable there about certain things, and then people that have gone too far, and they just drank the Kool Aid and went all the way down the road you're like, “Come back! You went too far.”

Eric Reinholdt: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and it also brings up those questions like, who's writing the algorithm? Because let's say that the prison actually increased their tendency for violence and it actually ended up being something that was self-destructive. I mean, there's all kinds of places that you can take this and it's certainly something we're going to have to confront in the future. I mean, if it's a possibility, it's going to happen. And so yeah, wow, kudos to you guys for thinking at this level. ‘Cause man, I'm just designing the houses up here in Maine. I feel like a little redneck.

Tyler: We're in Georgia. 

Eddie: We claim that, that would be us.

Eric Reinholdt: We don't get enough sun up here to get red necks. 

Eddie: Let's just keep talking about this.

Tyler: My brain is spinning now, too, because what if the algorithm said, “Okay, prisoners don't deserve windows,” and that alone increased the violence like you were saying within that buil— like just, man, down the rabbit hole we go.

Eddie: You’re welcome. I stumbled on it. We brought a great mind in the room. I'm just trying to… Alright. What we love is bringing out ideas and helping people to be able to speak about the things that they're the most passionate about. And one of the ways we do that is we always end the show with our megaphone question. That is just that we would give you 60 seconds and say, if we gave you a megaphone to speak to the whole industry, what would you say to them?

Eric Reinholdt: Wow, I wish I was more prepped for this question. 

Tyler: I'm sorry. 

Eric Reinholdt: Thanks guys.

Eddie: Cold turkey.

Tyler: My bad.

Eric Reinholdt: When I started this design practice just as a single residential architect—when you build houses, you know, just as one guy, you affect very few people. And what I decided with the YouTube channel was I was going to trade a portfolio of work for legacy. And to me, that legacy is about education and sharing information and showing ideal design process and how it can be collaborative and not confrontational. And so I guess that's what I would say to people that this does work, and share what you know.

Tyler: Boom.

Eric Reinholdt: Maybe a little over 60 seconds.

Tyler: Yeah man, that was under. Well, Eric, thanks for joining us today, man. 

Eric Reinholdt: Hey, right on. Keep doing what you're doing. Love it. 

Tyler: Appreciate it.


Tyler: Hey guys, Tyler here. Thank you so much for joining us today. I want to point you at a couple of things before you go. As always, look at the show notes for any links to our guests, and you'll be able to find links to every single one of our social accounts. So you can click that, go like our page and get involved in the conversations that we're having there. If you have any ideas of something that you want us to go chase, something that you want us to talk about, hit us up. Send Eddie and I a message. We would really appreciate it. So you guys have a great week. We'll catch you later.